HHH - Rob Dunderdale
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[00:00:00]
Nicole: All right, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Hiring Happy Hour. I am very excited today to have someone that our paths crossed years and years ago when I was in a different role, and when he was doing amazing things. the nice thing is that I've been [00:01:00] following him, he doesn't know this, and the journey that he's been on with SmartRecruiters, and just been so proud of the wild success that he and the organization that he was with have had.
So he is a collaborative, forward-looking leader with a strong commitment to shared success and collective outcomes. He is a results-driven HR executive, driving AI-enabled transformation across talent acquisition and onboarding. He is deeply focused on candidate experience, shaping simpler, faster, and more empathetic hiring processes.
He is an award-recognized talent leader, named Enterprise Talent Leader of the Year by International Talent Awards in 2023 for driving meaningful change at the intersection of people and business. Former head of talent at Talent Attraction at KPMG, please join me in welcoming Rob Dunderdale. Rob, welcome to the show.
Rob: Thank you very much. What an intro
Nicole: Right? I, I pride myselves on just the beginning [00:02:00] smiles I get to see from these beautiful accolades and descriptions, uh, about my wonderful guests, and yours is no shortage of that by far
Rob: Thank you. Yeah, it's, it, yeah, it's been a great few years with, uh, with SmartRecruiters. We've achieved a lot
Nicole: Yes. Yes. And so I think we are going to get right into it 'cause we have some fun things to share with our audience today. Uh, so as you know, Rob, the goal of this is to truly ch- share some of those amazing achievements, and we call this our hiring happy hour. So as you think about your career and your time at KPMG Australia, what is that moment or that journey that you are proud of, that you achieved this greatness or accolades or savings, hint, hint, that, you just wanna share with our audience?
Rob: Yeah. Awesome. Like it's, um Gosh, where do I start? So I think joining, joining KPMG back in 2021, I think we were fortunate to be in a [00:03:00] position where change needed to happen. We'd all just come out of COVID, and the, economy had boomed back quicker than anyone thought it would. And so, recruitment got the spotlight I think it deserved.
part of that was working up a, business, business cases to look at the problems we were facing, but importantly, why we were facing them and the cost that that was causing, the business in, in terms of, processes that weren't really working for the organization anymore. so I think first and foremost, we pulled a business case together, and we did it in partnership with Smart
Recruiters. and I think there was a couple of things that came out of that. One, it was a start of a great relationship as a, a true partnership, but secondly, it helped us look at the problem differently. So we started looking at hiring success metrics and, what that was. And it wasn't necessarily about the historic recruitment metrics that were things like time to hire, but more broadly [00:04:00] around the speed of the recruitment process and importantly, the quality of the hires that were coming through.
so from the get-go, we were using very different language, with the executive, which, think really helped get their attention, and, and help ultimately get the green light for, the, uh, funding to do the project. and then from... So, you know, we, we-- four weeks into a role, I go into an exec, we get approval.
it's been an absolute whirlwind. Rich Lewis Jones in Australia is probably sick of me by this point 'cause we're speaking every day. But we get what we need, and we got the green light to go ahead. and I think importantly from there, there were, there were two things that we did which really set us up for success.
So one was building, we call the ROI dashboard, which just became this living, breathing thing that everybody across the organization had access to. that included a baseline metrics for things like time to [00:05:00] hire, the gender split of our hires, the number of First Nations candidates we were hiring, the number of graduates we were hiring, the number of graduate applications we were getting, how much we were spending on agency, et cetera, et cetera.
So every metric that you could think of was on this dashboard. Really manual and quite time-consuming to start with, but a really important exercise to say, "This is the baseline, and this is what we will improve against, and you all have access to this baseline." So you can see in real-time the progress that we were making.
and then the second thing I think we did really well we set up a, a separate transformation team, headed by some superstars in Australia under Claire Plan and second, Norella Laurenshaw, who were awesome in what they were doing, but also gave us the, the opportunity to look at the project and transform the function whilst importantly delivering the BAU.
and the two things worked really well together. we went for some quick wins straight away, as everybody does [00:06:00] in a transformation, and I think the minute we started to get those runs on the board with the transparency of the ROI dashboard did, wonders for the project overall and helped us and me as a leader build trust really quickly in the organization that said, "We've got this.
give us some breathing space while we sort it out because it's not easy and it's not all gonna be quick, but we've got this and you can trust us." And I think that's the-- that was the key to a really successful transformation for us, in the fact that everybody had access to what was going on, everybody could see the progress of what we were doing, and everybody could start to feel, the impact that we were having quite early on in the project.
So it was, yeah, it w- it was a, a really proud moment, I think, for my career
Nicole: I am proud of you as well and all that you achieved. I think shout out to Rich Lewis Jones. We know and love him. He started the APAC region from one to many. But I think what's important here, to [00:07:00] your point, is the relationship, right? This was something where he partnered with you to create the business case using an ROI calculator.
I think tools today are definitely what are going to help us to, quote unquote, "sell the executives on what needs to be done and get that support." But to your point, you didn't stop there, right? This dashboard that you created and creating that two-way transparency, one-stop shop for all and different stakeholders, whether you're an executive, whether you're part of that transformation team, whether you're a leader in the TA space within that organization, that's huge because it's saving you time.
It's saving the team, you know, a lot of those individual stakeholder conversations, but also provides you that opportunity to see honest progress, right? Most of it's green, some might be yellow, some might be red, but then that gives everyone the opportunity to kind of circle around that and support and see what needs to be fixed. with this transformation team, [00:08:00] I remember meeting you all in the early stages as we start to kind of build out your counterparts and your, uh, implementation team. I would say they were actually more than implementation. It was true transformation, right? We had change management. We called it at the time Hiring Success. and we did talk very often, and I would love for you to highlight for our audience, I mean, first we've talked about this dashboard, but what were some other, you know, things that truly helped as you continued to go on the chapters of this transformation?
Rob: s- so first off, I think within the dashboard itself that the, beauty of that was that it had data points that spoke to different audiences. So our exec weren't necessarily interested in time to hire. They were interested though in the commercial impact of slow hiring. So two slightly different metrics ultimately saying the same thing, but it's the impact of the commercial waste that sits in a recruitment process that got the attention of the [00:09:00] CFO.
It's the impact of the slow time to hire, which is the same metric really that got the attention of the hiring manager. So I think being able to build something that speaks to those different audiences is really important. I think bringing the TA team on a journey as well was really important for me.
So we-- when we started, I think that the team had tried to transform before, were probably coming at it from a, "Oh, here we go again," type lens, which completely fair to them because it, it, it, was a bit like Groundhog Day. But getting them involved and, and, and making them feel like they owned the outcome just as much as I did or the transformation team did, I think was really important.
So we had them all, form subcommittees under the project itself. So whilst they were delivering BAU, they were also doing things like applying for jobs at competitors or, reviewing careers websites of, of, tech startups in [00:10:00] Australia so that we could not only get to best practice, but we could get to next practice.
So taking all of the great stuff that existed and making it better than, than what existed today in the market. I think it's really important as well on, on large transformations to have some fun. I'm a big believer in being serious about your work, but not solemn. so there are absolutely times in a transformation to get your head down and, and to f- really focus, but they have to be balanced with an opportunity to kind of celebrate the small wins or, or, or come together and, and celebrate the things that didn't work and, and, and learn from why that didn't work.
But also in a way that it's, psychologically safe for your whole team so that they know that they can give this a go, and if they fail, it's all right, but we'll just learn from it and, and do it again sometime. think the
Nicole: done that. It was piñatas.
Rob: Yes. Nice.
Yeah
Nicole: filled piñatas and just,
you Watch them.
[00:11:00] Right? Safe,
Rob: totally
Nicole: therapy. The only thing injured is the piñata.
Rob: And hopefully it's full of some really tasty chocolate as well, so it's like a double whammy.
Nicole: Yes. Yes.
Rob: I, I think the-- we, we coined the phrase, green dot moments. and, and I'm not a, a psychologist, but I understand that positive thoughts in the brain attract more positive thoughts and can be stronger than the negative thoughts in your brain.
So if you do approach it with a positive mindset, you become more positive because of that. And so every Friday we'd have a, a, a meeting as a group where we'd go around and just celebrate one win that we all had independently, each other. And I think that, that allowed us to be more positive and to keep going when the times got tough, but also to, to celebrate everybody as a, as an individual contributor on, on the project as well, including the leaders as well, which I think helped show some vulnerability of, you know, "I had a really difficult meeting.
I was a bit nervous about it, but it went really well," [00:12:00] type of conversations that help everybody just get to know the human behind the job title.
Nicole: Sure.
Rob: we, we probably... I think change management communication was also really strong. W- I think we got to a point where everybody was like, "Okay, enough of the communication.
We get it. You're doing really well." and I think that's... "we-we-we've done hearing from you now. Give someone else a go." But I think it's really important to over-communicate when you're trying to demonstrate that this is
Nicole: Agreed
Rob: be a good thing. so yeah, that's-- I'd say they were the, the key things we did.
Nicole: Love that. Better than the alternative, right?
Rob: Exactly.
Nicole: Everyone
Rob: No surprises. Yeah. Yeah, exactly
Nicole: Um So here's what I've taken from this, and I really like these because I think this isn't going into like a framework or structure, but more just quick little things that an organization can do as they think about transformation.
Rob: Yeah
Nicole: the first one, having that ROI dashboard, I don't think is one that many [00:13:00] think about, right? We have our project management red, yellow, green topics, and we have our different work streams. But to your point, like making this, uh, really quantitative with the numbers, I think is truly something exceptional, and the thoughtfulness behind it of taking into consideration different stakeholders, but also what resonates with them. So that's number one. Number two, I think your transformation group, right? We have a lot of people that talk about transformation, and they make it another line item on a person's job. And so for you to bring together this superhero s- team to truly help make this their priority and therefore the organization's success, I think truly speaks to differentiation as we think about true transformation.
Rob: Yeah
Nicole: there, I totally am stealing best practice, next practice. Uh, we always talk
Rob: Many have
Nicole: optimization, but we don't think about it necessarily in the right moment. And so for you to take it a step further at that [00:14:00] time where you're still trying to solve for X is super powerful and super thoughtful. And last is your green dot moment. Again, I'm stealing that for my team. but-- and the psychology change management in me loves that, but I think to your point, reminding ourselves of something that we've achieved. So you and I are here talking about hiring happy hour, this momentous, you know, achievement that you and the team had. But let's not forget those weekly green dots of success that you and your team had. I wanna share with our audience some of the outcomes of this. And I know, Rob, that you would be like, "Oh, yeah, it was great." I mean, I will tell you all, team, I am so proud of this group. It has been the s- best ROI I have seen, at our organization.
So let me just, just share some stats because I think sharing one or two wouldn't do this justice. First and foremost, [00:15:00] 1,500% overall ROI in one year. So if you don't know what that means, know that they achieved, overachieved, and then explosive, like spaceship past Mars achieved success in the first year when it came to ROI.
And so it would be interesting to look at, and I'm sure Rich Lewis Jones always brings this back to, "Mate, look at what we estimated and look where you got," right? I think it's just monumental. as we talk about numbers, millions, millions, millions, I could add Lots of millions in efficiency gains from talent and IT OPEX.
I think this is huge. And guys, I'm not saying low millions, I'm saying this is like monumentous millions. averaging 5,000 hires per year with effici-fficiency gains. I cannot talk today. so as we think about your CEO and that kind of waste that you talked about and what's important to him, this was [00:16:00] probably absolutely super important, and to keep that going year after year is huge. 42% reduction in time to hire. That huge. These are great numbers. We're gonna keep going. 570% increase in graduate and vocational applications. Think of a world where you start with zero, now add 100 and 100 and 100 and 100 and 100 and 70, right? Like this is huge. These numbers are crazy. Recruitment agency spend reduced by millions and millions and millions.
And I know in the APAC region, this is a huge part of an organization, right? I've heard 70% of some businesses, is agency spend. So imagine how much savings there was. in addition, millions saved on executive search fees, and then 92,000 productivity hours back. Again, back to that waste, back to that savings. This [00:17:00] is incredible. This is incredible. And my last one is 40 minutes to three minutes for application time and 19 solutions integrated. I'll pause. I will get your response. I know you are humble, but Rob, this is-- I wish I had fireworks. I wish I had a volcano erupting. I wish I had a spaceship taking off.
Rob: Maybe just get some wine. Yeah. um-- Yeah, th-they are, they are great starts, and I think to, you know, as a, as a human being looking at a career-defining moment, having the opportunity to do a transformation like that is, is, is gold. and it's, it, it's great to see that you can leave such a legacy for an organization.
And I think what it has done is allowed-- It's given the recruitment team a seat at the table. It's allowed, for the opportunity to focus on what really matters in a recruitment process. And to your, your point in the, in the intro, it's really important to me that we remember, you know, when people are looking for opportunities, it is a really vulnerable time in their career.
They don't want to be ignored. They don't want to be left for weeks wondering whether it was them or, or, or you or, or whatever that might be. So putting the-- It, it allowed us to put the empathy back into the process. It allowed the recruiters to spend more time with the hiring managers and form those really deep, lasting relationships.
It allowed the recruiters to speak to candidates in a more deeper way that allowed them to understand what we were as an organization, and ultimately allowed us to hire better quality candidates because we were getting more-- Our processes were, were slick, and so we could see the quality and, and that, connecting that to the bottom line of a, an organization's, revenue opportunity is huge and really starts to shine the right light on a recruitment function, which is [00:18:00] it needs to be good because it is the first gate into an organization, and it's a really important to get [00:19:00] right
Nicole: Well said. Well said, Rob. I think you have touched on how important the human side of hiring is and where we can provide that, and also reminding our audience how imperative it is to the experience, so thank you. Let's
Rob: Thank
Nicole: learn more about you, because you are an amazing human.
Rob: you
Nicole: you care, you have left a legacy and, to your point, made a seat at the table for TA at KPMG Australia. But outside of work, what is your personal happy hour? What do you enjoy doing? What brings a smile to your face?
Rob: Uh, well, I'm British, so I like some time at the pub with my friends. That, that brings a smile on my face. going into winter now, so there's a, a big group of us that are doing a, a weekly where is the best Sunday lunch in Aus- in Sydney, event, which is great because you know... Well, and I can keep you posted.
We'll, we'll start an Instagram reel about that eventually, I'm sure. I
Nicole: Love it.
Rob: I [00:20:00] like getting out with my dog. I'm very fortunate to live near a big park, so getting out and, and kind of it's getting some vitamin D on my skin and, and walking around the park is great. yeah, and spending time with family I think fills my bucket
Nicole: All right. we're gonna transition into my favorite part, which is called This or That. Uh, we spoke about this, but you can choose one or the other. You can choose both. I will warn you, this is a little different than I normally do with this segment, where I've included numbers, right? Like, we are on the ROI topic.
We are going to continue to bring the stats in. So I will read them slowly. If you need me to repeat, because I know we're talking versus a visual, let
me know. But you ready?
Rob: I'm ready
Nicole: Uh, first, first one, 1300 ROI or 46% faster hiring
Rob: I'm gonna go with ROI because I think that builds [00:21:00] more trust internally, which allows you to do more as a function and get more investment
Nicole: Love it. Love it. Okay. Millions and millions and millions in revenue gain or millions and millions and millions in cost savings
Rob: Oh, that's a tough one. Cost savings purely because I think of where we are at a macro level across the world, it is all about doing more with less. AI is here, so I think it's gotta be that one
Nicole: Great point. Great point. Okay. Three-minute application or 14,500 recruiter hours saved
Rob: My team would probably kill me for saying this, but I think it's gotta be the three-minute application purely because the experience of the candidate is really important in today's world. they, they have choice, and they will opt out of a process if it's not great
Nicole: I'm with you, candidate first. But I get it. I get it. And hey, recruiters are important too, and you, you [00:22:00] did both in this situation,
Rob: Yes.
Nicole: Okay.
Rob: Yes.
Nicole: All right. 570% more applicants or millions less agency spend
Rob: Look, I'm a big believer in the corporate world having a fundamental responsibility in bringing up the future leaders of the world. I'm gonna therefore go for the graduates. it's something I think we're, we're very proud of in terms of what we've achieved there, but it, it, yeah, it's that one
Nicole: I love it. I love it. And they are the future. They are. right. 7,741 hires 4,021, 284 applications
Rob: Oh, I'm gonna go with the hires. I think that's what we're all there for, right? Like we have to, we have to convert some of the applications into hires. I, I think if, if anything now with the introduction [00:23:00] of AI and process efficiencies, the next challenge is looking at the application volume and how we make sure that we are seeing the tal- the talent in those higher volumes that are coming, through today
Nicole: Very true. Very insightful. Okay, we're done with the big numbers. Now we're gonna get just to this or that's so you can, you can relax and relax that brain a bit. reward or recognition?
Rob: Recognition
Nicole: Uh, mountain or ocean?
Rob: Ocean
Nicole: Okay. Uh, we talked a little bit about this. Gin or whiskey?
Rob: Gin. I think I'm too young for whiskey.
Nicole: or beer?
Rob: maybe come back to me in 20 years, it might be whiskey. I know my family, the older generations of my family love a whiskey. wine or beer? Definitely
Nicole: I
Rob: wine. Definitely. A nice Pinot Noir from Victoria
Nicole: Aw. Oh, all right. See,
Rob: you go.
Nicole: We have lots of adventures
Rob: do
Nicole: here. Okay. sunrise or sunset?
Rob: Sunrise. Absolutely an early bird
Nicole: [00:24:00] and last one, vacation or staycation?
Rob: Oh, vacation. 100%. Yeah, get me away
Nicole: I hope you took one after all this hard work. I really do.
Rob: Yes. Yes, I can't wait. I'm going back to the UK for the UK summer in a couple of weeks, which will be great
Nicole: Oh, well deserved.
Rob: Thank you
Nicole: Oh, well, thank you, Rob. This has been wonderful. Uh, for all of those listeners out there, I hope you took something away from today. I say that often, but this, again, a journey that I have followed for years and years, truly was remarkable. And so kudos to you, Rob, and the entire KPMG Australia transformation team. Kudos to all the individuals that have experienced this in the future state. and thank you. I'm excited to see what's ahead and all the impact that you will continue to make the world
Rob: Thanks, Nicole. Thanks for the opportunity
Nicole: Yeah. This has [00:25:00] been another episode of Hiring Happy Hour. Thank you everyone for listening, and we will see or hear you again soon